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Debate advice and style first 909 posts

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This topic contains 910 replies, has 77 voices, and was last updated by  Sys Op 2 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 741 through 760 (of 911 total)
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  • #27731

    Henry Davenport
    Participant

    @ six gun: thumbs up! From me at least.

    I’d like to see a one-two punch, first Horus’ straight Mantra reply, and then basically your post which seems to me much like Beefcake’s reply and like my own reply but better done.

    But technically, it seems to me that all of our replies except Horus’ are tailgating. I don’t know what to make of that.

    I’ve considered tailgating to mean any reply that isn’t one of the infinite number of versions of the Mantra that can be constructed, since almost all non-Mantra territory has already been occupied and poisoned by anti-whites, and so anti-whites will have the upper hand with us in influencing our audience if we go there (whether or not anti-whites directly lead us there).

    But unless Bob or Horus or anyone else can point out to me some way that your post causes damage, I’m going to assume your post is an exception (and I suspect there could be many) to the rule, “Do not tailgate.”

    If I’m right so far, I hope that as we go along we can see more clearly what factors distinguish acceptable tailgating from the much larger category of unacceptable tailgating….if we can formulate and state the differences between the two, we’ll have a guide other than our personal intuition, which for myself and for most of us will more often be wrong than right when it comes to tailgating, IMO.

    Possibly I’m not understanding “tailgating” correctly.

    #27732

    dubya
    Spectator

    @kiwi

     

    “As an anti-White, are you saying Eastern Europe is for White people?

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White”

    #27735

    kiwi
    Participant

    @WW

    At first I didn’t get it, but I think you are saying that we can force the anti-White to admit that Whites have a right to a homeland, and that would be a major concession. But what if I don’t speak Eastern European? (bad attempt at humor)

    Or what if I like it where I am?

    #27736

    Jason
    Participant

    Well isn’t the fact that you literally cannot even start a coffee shop that sells only to Whites or have a small neighborhood that is Whites only, proof positive that we are forced to integrate/assimilate?   What can you do in the US or Europe in business that doesn’t force you to integrate?

    Are we legally allowed to start a Whites only school (that isn’t based on some religion)?  I don’t think so.

    #27742

    SixGun
    Participant

    kiwi – There was recently the European Championship football in Poland/Ukraine.

    The British media was stuff full of anti-White propaganda. There were Black footballers saying people should not go to the matches, they weren’t save, there was massive racism, neo-Nazi and so on.

    As it was nothing happened above the normal events at all championships.

    It was a very successful championship and the all White Spanish team won. I noticed yesterday the all White Spanish under-19 team won against an all White Greek team.

    Eastern Europe was under Communism for a long time so there has been less chance to infiltrate and pervert the countries. I’m sure a little research would reveal the process is starting.

    #27745

    SixGun
    Participant

    I am coming back on the statistics.

    I hear voices say it is off message. I hear slogans like “News and Jews.”

    BS.

    The message is White genocide and the anti-White system causing it. It is very broad so we have to focus on certain parts or else our message gets diffuse and loses impact.

    Basic rules of propaganda is you stick to a limited number of points which you repeat and end on your slogan. That’s what advertisers do. ’A million housewives every day pick up a tin of Beans and say‘ Beanz Meanz Heinz’. Keep it simple.

    We get other pro-Whites who start harping on about crime stats or economics or how many great things White people invented. None are immediately connected with White genocide [well some are but the message gets diffuse then].

    That by 2066 White Britons will be the minority in the UK unless something happens is a statistic or in this case a demographic projection.

    Is this off message?
    Does it immediately relate to the message of White genocide?
    Is it easy to understand?
    Does it have the potential to have an emotional impact on the reader?
    Is it true?

    well the answer is it is not off message – it is 100% on message. It is easy to understand, it makes the argument for White genocide real and it brings home the reality of what we are saying.

    You should not flood a posting with lots of stats.
    One piece which you repeat and repeat.
    The information must be tailored for the audience.

    This is a million miles away from talking about inter racial crime stats or Jewish controlled media and banking or the Palestinian rights or 9/11 or whether George Zimmerman is guilty and why the lame stream media called him White and photoshopped the pictures.
    This is “News and Jews” these are off message statistics.

    These do not leave the reader with our message.

    If you tell a normal British person that by 2066 their grandchildren will be a minority in Britain. You have the potential to upset them. The potential to scare them.
    Our message should upset them, scared them and make them angry.

    #27747

    kiwi
    Participant

    Thanks sixgun. All very good points.

    #27748

    SixGun
    Participant

    HD – when you tailgate you sit on the leading car’s bumper [fender in the US I believe]. You follow that car and you keep following them. You get so close you can’t see where you are going. You could tailgate the other car off a cliff.

    The other car is dictating where you go; it leads you where it likes and like a tailgating fool you follow and follow. You end up well off the road – the Mantra road.

    The anti-White wants to get you off message. You are telling the audience [not the anti-White idiot] about White genocide through the medium of the Mantra.

    The anti-White does not want you to do that. They want to get you off the main road and onto the side roads, into difficult terrain where you will get lost and bogged down.

    You will say “They call themselves anti-racists but all they are is anti-Whites.”

    Anti-White says “Who are they? You are talking about Jews, you people are obsessed by Jews. I know you say the Jews control the media”

    You fall for it and tailgate – “The Jews do control the media. They own over 90% of the top media companies in the USA.”

    Anti-White “No these are public companies, they are owned by institutions which are owned by shareholders most of whom are White people.”

    And so the conversation goes on. You are no longer talking about White genocide. You have been led off the Mantra highway into Tailgate Lane.

    Some posters unwittingly invite the anti-White to initiate a tailgate journey by bringing up off message topics. Like they may start off with Black crime statistics. Strictly that would not be tailgating as you are not following the anti-White or other person off the road. But the other person may latch onto this and you tailgate them into a discussion on crime stats which is nothing to do with the message you are distributing.

    Imagine you are selling kitchen units. Would you start talking about lawn fertiliser?
    Not if you wanted to be successful at selling kitchen units. If the other person started talking about lawn fertiliser you will get them back to kitchen pretty quickly. The same applies to the Mantra message.

     

    #27749

    Jason
    Participant

    This is for my own thinking, but would everyone agree there are some basic constraints for any message we put forward?  It has to make the point, but it has to be short – economy of words.  The Mantra hits all the major points at a high level, but doesn’t (and cannot) flesh out all the details.

    The public is not interested in deep detail  This is the era of tldr (too long didn’t read).  So the goal has to be pithy short sentences that carry a lot of weight, shut the other side up or force them to answer a question.   Among ourselves we may have long conversations, but the messages to the public have to be streamlined.   This is obvious to most of you, but I’m just making sure I’m on the right page.

    Feel free to correct me.

    #27751

    SixGun
    Participant

    You are correct Jason.

    I would refer you to this page - http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Quotes-media.htm

    As it happens many of the quotes are from Mein Kampf. The reason being they are correct.

    We are distributing propaganda – advertising the reality of White genocide through the Mantra.

    We do not have to stick to the lines of the Mantra and indeed we are altering them to suit the venue. BUT we MUST convey the message within the Mantra [the meaning of the Mantra].

    The issue with moving away from the Mantra is:

    1 Those who are less adept will start talking about something that is off topic.

    2 Those who are less adept will end up tailgating.

    3 Those who are less adept will not convey the meaning as well as the Mantra does.

    4 The very repetition of the words or phrases or the essential rhythm of the phrases has a power in itself.

    “Nobody says…..

    Nobody says…

    They only say to White.. in White….”

    The trick is to keep it simple so everyone can understand.

    Make sure it is truthful and relevant to the audience.

    Repeat and repeat and repeat. Repeat the slogan.

    And does start talking about off topic material.

    #27752

    Daniel Genseric
    Participant

    Stats? Who’s stats? Your’s or mine? His or hers? Blah blah blahhhhhhhhhhhhhh…. I could just scream. Statistics aren’t consistent. Stay on message or go post crime and stats BULLSHIT on News & Jews. I take it personally when someone “shits” in our work area.

    Thank you. Come again.

    #27753

    SixGun
    Participant

    DG what was that about?
    You went into SF mode.

    You have said you used stats before and it did not work.

    Well I don’t know what data you used or how.
    As well as that how do you know whatever it was you were trying to achieve did not work b/c of your stats?
    Who told you?

    You deliberately misrepresented what I said.  Crime stats are not on message so we won’t be using those.

    If you start using flaky stats like the 8% figure you could not substantiate when we discussed this the other day, then you are asking for trouble.

    The 2066 date for White minority in the UK was published in 2011 by Oxford University. There is no contradictory data. Every time they look at this the minority date gets nearer and nearer.

    Yes I agree there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

    I agree if you don’t know your numbers properly you can end up with egg on your face.

    I agree this is definitely not for everyone.

    I agree if you can’t handle it you could end up in a your stats, my stats and the fly on the wall’s stats and the anti-White tailgating you into meta analysis of the 3 month call option price of corn oil for the last ten years.

    I agree that it is for the majority of people, they will end up in a mess, so leave them out.

    We will agree to disagree on then being always off bounds for all people.

    #27755

    Henry Davenport
    Participant

    @ six gun: I like your formulations around tailgating: restrict the word pretty much to its literal meaning, and categorize other content as on-topic or off-topic. I would also categorize other content by whether or not it’s already poisoned by anti-whites, e.g., Bob reproached us for referring to Israel’s immigration policies even though it was done in a way that was on-topic.

    A critical post in this discussion is your own back on page 48 at 6/27/2012 at 11:54 am.

    Let’s imagine I’m your audience.

    You say “They only DEMAND to see proof of genocide when it comes to EVERY white country and ONLY for white countries.”

    Audience thinks

    Yeah well they {A-W] would only be asking for proof from you for only White countries b/c you are only talking about White countries. He seems to be dodging the question. I’d like to know myself.

    I’m not going to accept that analysis without a lot of thought and observation of its effect, since you’re stating that the standard method Bugs has used is inadequate and needs to be supplemented. (Of course in fact some of us…certainly myself…have been operating on your idea  even while denying that it’s valid. I can’t think that my reply to “personal choice” that mentions TV ads that brainwash white women to accept black husbands is a bad reply, and I know other bugsers have liked it).

    Genseric, do you really stick purely to “Mantra statements” in all your posts? Are you and Peter (Peter, if you’re reading) saying that the ONLY reply we should make to the “marriage is a personal choice” challenge, for example, is like Horus’ recommended reply that I copied above, “No one is flooding China with non-Chinese and saying ….well it is all personal choice here so we are going to create a blended humanity in ONLY China?

    As happened before, I may disagree with six gun’s analysis, but I like a lot his own swarm comment that his analysis produces (!):

    You’re asking me for proof anti-White? Are you deaf, daft and blind?  The evidence is everywhere.

    My city
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350087/White-children-Birmingham-minority-year-immigration.html

    My country
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330734/White-Britons-outnumbered-2066-immigration-continues.html

    Now tell me there’s no White genocide.
    I just want you to write a message to the future White children in my country and all White countries explaining to them that White genocide isn’t real.
    You call yourself an anti-racist but what you are is anti-White.
    Anti-racism is a code word for anti-White.

    That seems very effective to me in strengthening the more Mantra-like posts that it should appear among. I sometimes link an article reporting on increasing black-white marriages in the American South, and I mention that most whites now know some white family that has mixed children, cousins, etc. I think this sort of thing is helpful.

    As Mr. H says in that fine collection of quotes six gun linked, “”When there is change, it must not alter the content of what propaganda is driving at, but in the end must always say the same thing. For instance, a slogan must be presented from different angles, but the end of all remarks must always and immutably be the slogan itself. Only in this way can the propaganda have a unified and complete effect.”

    That’s pretty much what six gun has been saying in this discussion, I think.

    Genseric, if anti-whites come up with stats saying we won’t disappear until a later date, I don’t see how that injures our message. Even if they come up with stats saying we won’t disappear at all, they will be filling a thread with a debate about white genocide.

    One of our main claims, Bob’s main claims, is that we want to be allowed to discuss white genocide. There’s no time like the present.

    Six gun’s point about distinguishing on-topic content from off-topic content is central.

    #27758

    Daniel Genseric
    Participant

    HD, this is meant as more of a general statement to, ahem, multiple people.

    I’m smart enough to realize that pointing out DOUBLE STANDARDS in an encapsulated template works. It really does! Don’t believe me? Ask someone smarter then. Stats and crime crap FAIL. The wildly popular “33% of the world’s population now being 9%” mini has only received one bone of contention regarding the merits HERE. Can you believe it? hahahah!

    #27759

    Daniel Genseric
    Participant

    “Genseric, if anti-whites come up with stats saying we won’t disappear until a later date, I don’t see how that injures our message. Even if they come up with stats saying we won’t disappear at all, they will be filling a thread with a debate about white genocide.”

    Give me a hypothetical anti-white retort then. Since you don’t have a real-world problem to speak of. I will show you how it’s done right now. Thanks to those who came before me.

    A heavily censored internet does not a “world forum to discuss white genocide” make.

    #27760

    Daniel Genseric
    Participant

    “Six gun’s point about distinguishing on-topic content from off-topic content is central.” -HD

    “The 2066 date for White minority in the UK was published in 2011 by Oxford University. There is no contradictory data. Every time they look at this the minority date gets nearer and nearer.” -six nug

    Off topic. AND it invites an opportunity for subsequent ‘Your Stats-My Stats,’ minority status tailgating. There.

    #27761

    Daniel Genseric
    Participant

    Let me draw an uber-simplistic analogy.

    “Alright gang. I called this board meeting to discuss our slogan, “Always, Coca Cola.”

    “We’re thinking of adding ’88% of the time it’s’ Always Coca Cola. Whaddaya think, gang?”

    “What do you mean I’m fired? Hey! Where is everyone going?”

    #27764

    SixGun
    Participant

    Clearly there are polar opposite views.

    May be 8 out of 10 cat owners disagree with me but I’ll live with that.

    A few choice stats hits the audience – I know it hits the audience.
    I don’t give a flying feck about the anti-White.

    Everyone I have told face-to-face the 2066 date to has been upset, shocked, well I can believe that, F***ing disgusting. The only come back was one anti-White who said, well its only an estimate. They were duly executed, they had accepted there was a minority date.
    All the others have run away. The audience is left with White genocide Mantra, evidence supporting it which likely confirms what they thought anyway and the anti-White who has run for the hills.

    This is my experience. I have used the numbers to tailgate the anti-White into my liar and finished them off there. You can tailgate the anti-White, give them the bait and many will follow.

    I am totally happy with using the bit of data I use.

    If you are not sure about the data, if you can’t deal with the potential replies, if you just would rather not use it – then don’t.

    If in doubt leave it alone.

    By the way there is reference to population densities in the Mantra – one of the areas I’d amend changing Taiwan to Korea. The irony of it.

    #27782

    Daniel Genseric
    Participant

    I hate cats. Please provide New Stats. bwahahaha!

    #27810

    Jason
    Participant

    What we need is an annotated version of The Mantra.  If every line of the Mantra had a full explanation for WHY it was included, it would help explain to all of us not just why a specific line is there (which is very important) but HOW do craft such messages.

    And yes, when I say “someone ought to do it”, it means I don’t plan to.  Ideally Bob would be the best person.

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