When I was coming up in a place a mile further out than nowhere, there were bantam chickens all over the place. I remember one bantam rooster vividly because he jumped on me when I was only a little bigger than he was.
Mark mentioned bantam roosters, and I was a little surprised that anybody today had even heard of them. Certainly none of the chicken factories today raise bantams, though even I could be mistaken.
In the years since that bantam attack on me, I have often wondered what bantam chickens were FOR. I have never heard of anyone eating bantam eggs, I have never seen fried bantam.
A similar situation arises in connection with goats. When I was a boy and snakes still had feet, a goat was a very skinny little gray animal that would eat absolutely anything. People thought they ate tin cans because they would chew on tin cans to eat the labels off of them.
I saw little gray goats like that all over Central and South America. So when a friend of mine said he had a goat farm, I was astonished at what he called a “goat.” His goats are large creatures of different colors. They look a lot more like small cows than they do like the goats I knew about.
In fact, I imagine there were a lot of cattle the size of my buddy’s goats before scientific selective breeding set in.
In the time of the ancient Greeks and Romans, a horse was a tiny creature. Like the bantams, this has been a mystery to me, too. These guys were making charges on tiny horses with lances and no saddles and no stirrups.
I can’t see in my mind how they did that at all. But how they did that in the middle of BATTLE and drive enemy soldiers off is real mystery to me.
And when the Roman legions came in a disciplined, tight formation, why didn’t the people fighting them just let that disciplined square of soldiers walk around wherever it wanted to? Then, when the formation broke up, they could have just killed them one by one or let them build their forts and stay together.
#1 by Elizabeth on 07/06/2005 - 10:15 pm
The oldest breeds of horses still around today are the Icelandic ponies and the Preh-zheh-valskees (phonetic spelling)of Mongolia. They’re ponies by modern standards.
The European fighting men in armor didn’t ride those. They rode specially-developed breeds that became so big that, when armor stopped being high technology, they became the draught animals — like the Clydesdales, and other pullers of plows and heavy wagons.
Bantams are smart chickens. Unlike the conventional types, they’ll evade capture. The conventional types can’t fly and are pretty dumb — but they’re big, so they’re the ones that are raised for food.
#2 by Peter on 07/07/2005 - 12:37 am
Aren’t bantams for target-practice?
#3 by Peter on 07/07/2005 - 1:42 am
The Romans did have saddles. They had stirrups, too, but apparently these were not needed until later in the Medieval ages when armor grew heavier, the horse was bred larger, and cavalry became more tactically essential.
Cavalry became more essential owing to a more complex fighting platform of saddle bow, high cantle, twin girths, and stirrup in the thirteenth century. This made it possible to charge à lance couché with greater confidence. The quality of the horse continued to advance through careful selective breeding through the fourteenth century. In battles of a larger scale, the aristocratic elite of heavy cavalry could serve as the core to the sizable armies that could be mustered (with support of infantry).
#4 by Bob on 07/07/2005 - 12:01 pm
Peter, I should have said “support” or “girdled” saddles, the ones that would help them stay on.
About the stirrups, I doubt it seriously.
One of the great advantages the Normans had at Hastings is that they used stirrups, and Northern Europe was miles ahead of Rome in horse technology even when the Roman Empire existed centuries before (my apologies to Byzantium).
The genius Roman Civilization couldn’t really use horses as draft animals because the only yokes they had were the ones that strangled the horses when they pulled heavy loads.
It was not until the “Dark Ages” when Northern Europeans brought in the yoke, the horseshoe and the like.
#5 by Peter on 07/07/2005 - 2:09 pm
Bob,
What you are saying is part of the thesis of Lynn White, one of the most esteemed historians of the twentieth century. He centered his account of the rise of chivalry and the high middle ages on the sudden appearance of a single technology, the stirrup.
However, it wasn’t so simple. As you say, northern Europeans had the stirrup, and Viking graves from about the eighth and ninth centuries have been dug up, complete with horse, rider and stirrups. That fact alone casts doubt on White’s thesis of the stirrup’s sudden appearance at the Battle of Hastings in the eleventh century.
Further, the stirrup isn’t what keeps the rider in his saddle when riding a lance couche; the saddle does that, especially the cantle. The cantle is the back of the seat, in some saddles it is vertical, but more often, it is the high hind edge of a deep saddle bow, which also rises to the pommel in the fore part.
So one chivalrist, Maurice Keen, attributes the success of Medieval cavalry to a complex of factors, including a deeper saddle bow, high pommel, high cantle, twin girths (as you mention), and the stirrup. Even so, the charge (a lance couche), was still not the preferred tactic of cavalry at Hastings or any other place. The charge was the initial entry for shock and awe. The Bayeux tapestry shows the charge only two out of thirty-five examples. Morever, Harold had fought under the Normans, knew their fighting tactics intimately, and won the important initial victories at Hastings.
The Romans had used completely different tactics for their horse infantry. Their horses were small, as you say, and they preferred the ability to mount and dismount quickly to fight hand to hand. The stirrup is really just a foot-rest and can be as simple as a looped rope. But this is moot, since Roman armor was minimum and light and their tactics preferred mobility and flexibility on and off their mounts, as opposed to security. To the Romans, the horse was transport for infantry.
Both Romans and northern Europeans used teams of oxen for ploughing. Eventually after the giant war-horses were bred out of Arabian (combined with other) stock, farmers adopted them in preference to the ox, as you say. The north has always had a close relationship with the horse (sometimes even religious). But its transition into farming was slow, not sudden as White suggested.
Like you, I don’t think the middle ages were dark, either. Men like Petrarch used that metaphor to criticize Medieval emphasis on formalism in logic, grammar, and such. They hoped to create a renewed emphasis on literature, which I think meant essentially a refreshing of what Medieval scholars already did.
Just my 2¢.
#6 by Mark on 07/07/2005 - 3:21 pm
Peter said: “Further, the stirrup isn’t what keeps the rider in his saddle when riding a lance couche; the saddle does that, especially the cantle.”
This is too side splitting funny to interrupt. In the words of Bugs Bunny, “It is to laugh.” Hoo boy….
#7 by Mike on 07/07/2005 - 5:28 pm
The bantam hens make excellent mothers. My wife uses them to raise chicks.
#8 by Bob on 07/07/2005 - 8:31 pm
Mark, you haven’t said anything.
What do you disagree with?
Any facts to back it?
#9 by Mark on 07/07/2005 - 10:15 pm
Bob, we raised horses, quarter horses and draft horses, on our two farms when I was growing up and my wife presently owns a full blooded Arabian gelding, an ornery critter if I ever saw one, so while not an expert on riding, I have been in the saddle enough to know what happens when you give it the ol’ giddyup.
The stirrups, while not the only item used to stay in the saddle, is one item used to keep you on the beast. Your legs act as shock absorbers and when the horse picks up speed you “bounce” (wrong word, I know) in the saddle, allowing the stirrups to take the impact and hold you in place. Without strirups you have to squeeze the horse tight with your legs, like the Indians did out west. Riding w/o stirrups is not impossible but it is more diffucult since you basically grip the horse with your legs and body. I used to ride an old draft horse that way and it was tricky at first. Thank god she was an old worn out cayuse. Peter mentions the cantle holding you on, which is partly true, but even if you have an old highback saddle (like the ones used prior to the 1930’s, vs. today’s rollback saddles) if a horse wants you off bad enough it doesn’t matter what type of cantle you have, you’re probably going to get thrown. The apple or horn is another important aspect to the saddle because if all else fails you hold on like hell and hope for the best. But given the choice between a highback saddle with no stirrups or a rollback saddle with stirrups, I’d opt for thestirrups.
#10 by Peter on 07/08/2005 - 4:39 pm
Bob,
Bob, I wrote: “So one chivalrist, Maurice Keen, attributes the success of Medieval cavalry to a complex of factors, including a deeper saddle bow, high pommel, high cantle, twin girths (as you mention), and the STIRRUP.”
There are FOUR things listed there. Nowhere do I say that knights went “riding w/o stirrups,” as another commenter clearly implied.
“Further, the stirrup isn’t what keeps the rider in his SADDLE when riding a lance couche; the saddle does that, especially the cantle.” This is true. The feet slip into the stirrups; the butt goes on the SADDLE.
Stirrups, cantle, pommel and girths together helped the knight to stay on his HORSE.
In fact, when posting (“bouncing” somebody said), the stirrups help the rider rise OUT of the saddle, not keep him IN. At gallop, the stirrups help give the rider a longer suspension, slightly OUT of the saddle, and do not keep him IN.
——————————————————-
Charging in battle was no trail ride for recreation. Charging required everything a knight could find to keep him on his horse.
Here is how a charge went:
The knight tucked himself up for a full gallop, his weight towards the front of the horse. When within striking distance, the attacking knights removed their spears from the fewters (felt-lined holders affixed to the left of the saddle), lowered them horizontally to the opponent and leaned forward as he tucked it underarm. This was known as “a lance couche;” that is, holding the lance flat and in a bed the knight made with his right arm. As he galloped, the knight put his left arm snug on the pommel (an “apple” or “horn” is on modern Western saddles). Picture two knights riding at forty mph straight at each other, three hundred pounds of knight and armor atop 1700 pounds of horse — times two. That’s four thousand pounds or more, racing for collision at eighty mph. The knight aimed the lance to his left angled across his body from his right arm, so his body would not take the impact directly. The slam on the opponent was as from a living missile of horse, knight and armor, devastating for the sheer speed through which the knights could punch through infantry and skewer men.
Bob, White’s thesis put too much emphasis on the sudden appearance of just one thing. The reality is gradual evolution of many things.
Just my 2¢.
#11 by Peter on 07/08/2005 - 8:41 pm
Bob,
Actually, I misstated that about “angling” the lance. For a direct charge, it was held straight forward, couched in the right arm, both hands gripping. If I remember right, the pommel braced the left arm to reduce backward motion.