One thing I hate about Europeans is that they take their own particular national feelings very seriously, but they laugh at my being a Southerner. When I was young and I told a Scotsman that it really hurt me to be called a “Yank” he was too wise, he thought, to take that seriously. He had read all the stuff about how silly Southerners were.
I hated his guts for that. I wouldn’t now. But I still think very little of him.
I didn’t hate him because he took HIS identity as a Scot seriously. I admired him for that. But when he then turned around and laughed at MY identity, it was more than a young man could take.
What made me think of this was reading the comment I just answered by Jehovists.
They always start off by insulting me. THEY know their Bible. My ideas are navie and wishful. THEIR ideas are based on reading the Book, which I obviously never did.
THEY take their religion SERIOUSLY. Mine is just superficial.
After saying all that, they give me extensive quotes with which I, a fairly intelligent Bible Belter, was very familiar before most people living today were born.
But the insults have to come first.
THEY have a religion they take seriously. THEY have read the Bible.
Compared to them, they say, I am just an ignorant piddler.
I respect that ranting, Bible-believing “little” preacher out in the sticks. I respect his beliefs, and I don’t care how much education he has.
I respect a European’s dedication to his own identity.
But if you want to turn a potential ally into an enemy fast, tell him how much you know about identity or religion and tell him how REAL and SINCERE your ideas are and how superficial and ignorant HIS feelings and beliefs and knowledge are.
There is a piece of wisdom in the North Carolina saying, “You’re ugly, your feet stick and you don’t love Jesus.”
That saying ridicules people who are not aware that they are assuming that if someone is against them they are evil or insincere or ignorant in every way. Jesus said the same thing: There are people who say you are either with us or you are against, but we — his followers — are not of that sort.
#1 by joe rorke on 10/01/2005 - 7:19 pm
This is a very common phenomenon, Bob. It’s easy to deal with. Just consider the source. This reminds me of the Japanese fellow who said, “God against Man, Man against God, Man against Man. Very funny religion.” That statement had quite an impact on me.
#2 by Rocko on 10/01/2005 - 11:46 pm
Bob,
Were you refering to me with this? All I used was simple logic to show you were off base. C.S. Lewis used a similar method with his famous, “Lord, Lunatic, or Liar” example. If Jesus was lying to the Pharisees about Moses, what basis does he have for holding them accountable to Moses?
Jesus didn’t free us from the law of God. He said to commit the thought of adultery was the same as actually doing it. That to murder our neighbor in our heart was like doing it for real. Was he just joking?
Jesus didn’t relax the ten commandments. He made them completely impossible to keep, and made it clear that the standard was higher, not lower, than what the Pharisees were claiming. But he also made the point that only by faith could we keep them, not by our own efforts. Only by admitting that we cannot do it by our own strength, but admitting to our need for God’s grace, are we given the ability to live up to the standard.
I’m not presuming to give you a theology lesson, but have to provide enough background to make the point. It is basic, orthodox theology.
#3 by Mark on 10/02/2005 - 12:30 am
Being agnostic, many folks — probably you included Bob, although I don’t feel any resentment over it, think I’m destined for the looney bin since I claim no loyalty to any organized religion’s god or creed or holy book. I’ve learned to take most christian criticism with a grain of salt, but the one criticism that still riles me is when a christian gives up in exasperation, being unable to convert me to his form of christ, he will oftentimes end the discussion with a, “Well, go on then. I love you even though you’re a sinner and destined for hell.”
On the surface that may sound nice and fuzzy but in actuality what the christian is saying is, “I’m SOOO much better than you and since I can’t get you to bow your head and accept MY dogma I’m gonna’ put you in your place.” Of course love is not what this person holds in his heart — far from it. Truth be told the ony reason this person wnats to convert me in the first place is because he feel’s it’s buying him brownie-points with his idea of god or possibly a higher level of heaven. And if I, as an agnostic turn down his sales pitch, that usually cuts his religous ego to the quick. The only come back he can offer is one designed to cut ME to the quick in return. I’ve ceased being amazed at christians and their conditional “love” for mankind.
#4 by Bob on 10/03/2005 - 1:54 pm
Rocko, I was only referring to you if you said I hadn’t read my Bible or I was being superficial or naive.
I simply do not believe that the titanic bully of the Old Testament is any more God than Ahura-Mazda or Odin.
#5 by Bob on 10/03/2005 - 2:00 pm
Mark, most of what you say is dead on target.
BUT:
Mark, let me (SIGH!) repeat this again: I am 99% atheist.
Jesus urged people to have faith the size of mustard seed. This indicates that he was not astonished by agnosticism.
Mark, let me (SIGH!) repeat this again: I am 99% atheist.
Mark, let me (SIGH!) repeat this again: I am 99% atheist.
So your idea that anyone is shocked by your being an agnostic like everybody is NOT surprising.
Mark, let me (SIGH!) repeat this again: I am 99% atheist.
#6 by lemon on 10/03/2005 - 11:47 pm
“I am 99% atheist.” You know, that sounds like a very humble way to put things. I cling to my 1% but I have to admit that I have no big reserve of absolutely unshakable confidence. Shari
#7 by Mark on 10/05/2005 - 8:20 am
Thanks, Bob, for clearing that up. It’s funny but I can never tell if you’re being forthright about such matters or if you are speaking “tongue-in-cheek”. Now I know. I suppose you could say I was “blinded by the light” — TEE HEE…
#8 by Peter on 10/13/2005 - 5:57 pm
Aren’t Scotchmen a hybrid of Lowland and Border Englishman, Viking pirates, Belgic (not “Celtic”) Welsh and Irish, and dark little pre-Indo-European Picts who ran around naked, except for tattoos head to toe?
#9 by Peter on 10/15/2005 - 1:23 pm
On the Law:
Bob is right, Christ replaced it completely. Indeed, orthodox theology makes a distinction between morality (sometimes “moral law”) and the Law. The Greek is clearer than the English; Christ says, “I come not to set down the law, but to fill it up.” That is, not to take a break, but to end the journey. This was an elegant response on several levels. It is worded so as to completely end the local quasi-religious order of the Jews. It is also worded to say that Christ carried out all moral law in defiance of the immoral Jewish “Law,” expects us to do the same, and fulfilled all old prophecies.
#10 by Peter on 10/15/2005 - 1:57 pm
On taking other people’s beliefs seriously:
Bob is talking about bigotry.
Bob shows enormous respect to agnostics by calling them close cousins to faith. Indirectly, he is showing respect to sincere atheists, too.
I find it amazing that someone can read Bob’s blog about taking other people’s beliefs seriously, and then do exactly the opposite.
Bigots, of course, do not respect others. Are they entitled to our respect?
A bigot doesn’t like other people. Thus, he will attack other people’s beliefs — of people right here in this blog.
The bigot is also a coward. He will attack other people — while crudely masking his attacks with claims that other people attacked him in the past. The coward knows they are not present to contradict him.
The coward says: “Do not tell me the truth, you are only supposed to LOVE me.”
And if anyone tries to defend his own beliefs here, the bigot/coward will take that as a personal attack to justify another rampage against their beliefs.
The bigot never gives other people’s beliefs respect.
Kudos to Bob for teaching respect.